Saturday, August 29, 2009

Sansa • Daenerys

Sansa was on stage when Ned's head came off, and it probably rolled to a stop just in front of her. Post beheaddard, Sansa for once has an understandable and non-idiotic reaction, grieving by going comatose in her room. She even fails spectacularly at suiciding out a window. Oh well, it was the thought that counts. Eventually Joffrey comes for her, because for some reason the Lannisters still want the marriage to go through. This time though Sansa is a tad less enthusiastic about marrying him. Obviously, Joffrey doesn't tolerate defiance, and treats her like Robert treated Cersei -- by beating her. Ah, good old teenage domestic violence. Except Joffrey is such a wuss that he can't even properly beat a young girl, ordering his guards to do it.

At court, Sansa observed as King Joffrey handed out extremely harsh sentences. Thus, Sansa shouldn't feel so bad, because Joffrey is clearly not biased against the Starks. He's just extremely pro-beheading. Joffrey is also pro-choice, giving a singer the option of keeping his fingers or his tongue. Joffrey muses out loud about whether their kids will grow up to be stupid like Sansa. I know Martin wrote that conversation as sort of a joke, but I see it as a perfectly legitimate concern. If my daughter were to take after dumbass Sansa, she would betray our family and cause my death. Not exactly grade-A genes there.

Joffrey actually shows Sansa her father's head. Sansa actually shows some backbone and talks back to him, but Joffrey does not hesitate to proxy Chris Brown her again. Sansa really should just stab Joffrey in his sleep or poison his food. Open defiance will just earn her more Meryn backhands. As her face swells up from the beating, Sansa remembers Petyr's words about life not being fair. However, the universe seems to know exactly who deserves what. Sansa betrayed her family the first time, and her wolf was killed. Sansa betrayed her family a second time, and now she's just a shell of her former self, living in her own personal hell. It might be harsh, but she brought it on herself. What will the universe do when Sansa makes her next blunder?
____________________

Dany is starting to go crazy, obsessing over her eggs and dreaming about her dead brothers. Her baby Rhaego was born dead, with wings and a tail. It's clear what happened -- the kid was a half dragon half human. No wonder the Targaryens married each other. If Dany had sexed Viserys instead, maybe she'd be giving birth to a full blood dragon. Wouldn't that be cool!? It turns out MMD had to sacrifice Rhaego to keep Drogo alive, but MMD sucks at black magic and was only able to retain a vegetable version of Drogo. Vege-Drogo can't lead anyone because he can't ride, and just about all of his 40k khalasar immediately left, taking the horses with them.

Dany finally figures out that MMD didn't have the best intentions. "But I saved you!" Dany cried. That means nothing to MMD, because she watched all her people die. Besides, she had already been raped several times before Dany intervened. And it was doggystyle! Apparently, rape is even worse when its performed using a sexual position you do not enjoy. It makes perfect sense, as the Dothraki are accustomed to hot wedding dancers, not old ugly lamb women demon sorceresses. In the end though, MMD had the last laugh, because she basically killed both Drogo and his son. Dany is broken and miserable, and that night decides to put Vege-Drogo out of his misery.

79 comments:

  1. Sansa wins many over many converts in her future endeavours. I personally still hate her because, as you've stated, she's a fucking moron.

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  2. Haha, proxy Chris Brown's her. Not only do you make fun of domestic violence, you do it with relevant pop culture references. That is some comedic talent.

    Oh and I welcome another Sansa hater. She really is just a dumb, and annoying bitch. As readers, we are supposed to be reviled by Joff's actions towards Sansa, but I actually liked him for it. Of course, when you do combine it with his murder of Ned and overall shitty personality, I do hate him.

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  3. Speaking of Philly homers...

    F U C K
    R Y A N
    H O W A R D

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  4. I never realy liked Sansa, but around this part of the story I did feel sorry for her. And I never really thought she was stupid, just extremely naive and sheltered. (SPOILER) She certainly seems to be heading in the direction of becoming a major player in the game in AFFC, and no matter how genious her teacher is, a stupid girl couldn't handle that.

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  5. Well, yanno, going against all the 12-year-old girl hate going around, I honestly rather like Sansa overall. I like how her disillusionment doesn't change her essential character (and the one time she does something gutsy 95% of fandom explodes with indignation lol), which I find very realistic. Trapped by circumstances (albeit somewhat self-induced) and fearful, she's more like a normal, meek person (opposed to Awesome Action-taking Arya). Outwardly, her behavior is the same (much like another character...) but inwardly she turns increasingly jaded. I think her path is just as sad and hard as Arya's, just in a different way.

    Of course, it also helps that she has an extreme effect on half of the interesting male characters in the series. :) Not to mention she's an important commodity, being Lannister's claim to the Stark name now that Robb has defected.

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  6. Sansa starts out bad, gets worse, and steadily improves at a snail's pace over the next couple books. If she keeps it up she may yet achieve some degree of likability by the end of this mess.

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  7. Jason,

    Now that Eddard is Beheadard, Robb is Lord of Winterfell. As he has no heirs, the claim to Winterfell continues to pass through Beheadard's children, which is why the Lannister's still want Sansa to marry Joff. Winterfell is a huge playing chip, and it would be in the Lannister's best interest to do their best to grab it up. I bet if they still had Arya, they'd want to marry her to Tommen, and if Bran or Robb had been there, they'd marry one of them to Myrcella . . .

    Plus, Joff is a sadistic little prick, he probably loves the idea of being married to someone he hates.

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  8. You are incorrect about Sansa causing Eddard's death. Ned was the person who told Cersei that he knew about the incest. Was he planning on fleeing King's Landing with Sansa? No, he was going to stay in King's Landing and make Stannis king. Eddard's fall would have happened with or without Sansa.

    So who did Sansa hurt with her betrayal? Well, Arya is still trapped in King's Landing because of it, but at least she escaped the castle. The main victim of Sansa's betrayal is....Sansa. So it turns out things are pretty fair after all. :) But, just to reiterate, Ned isn't the victim.

    Sansa has been a pretty dislikable character up until this chapter, but this is where I started liking her. She grows up the hard way.

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  9. Oh and by the way, I'm deliberately avoiding spoilers in hopes that the blog writer can read my posts. IIRC, Jason has a friend who emails him choice comments but doesn't actually look in the comment section, right? In that case I'll keep the spoilers out of my regular comments, and if I do, I'll put a "**SPOILERS**" tag at the top to help his friend manage it more easily. Hope that helps you, Jason's friend! (Whoever you are ;) ) If the above post doesn't comply with the rules, please email me...wakiki00 at gmail dot com

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  10. Ser Mosh: To me, Sansa might later on have more "raw data" to work with but more often than not 1+1 still adds up to 3 for her.

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  11. I really hated Sansa until I reached this chapter, then I started feeling sorry for her, and even rooting for her. Truth be told, I blame her parents for her naivety. Notice that after the big Sansa/Arya squabble in KL, who is it that Ned gives the pep talk to about the wolf pack? Arya (heck, Ned even lets her keep a deadly weapon!). Does Ned or Cat, in any way, shape or form, ever take Sansa aside and explain that the world they live in is nothing like the stories they've told her and that they're marrying her off to a psychopath? Nope, never. I can't really blame the girl when it's the parents who've been sheltering her all her life.

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  12. Your blog started out with promise. I'm sorry it descended into mocking rape victims for being ugly and crowing with glee over the abuse of a little girl.

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  13. I found the misogyny a little too subtle in this post.

    And by subtle I mean like a giant god damned truck. I enjoy reading your blog, as I find your impressions humorous for the most part. But I'm afraid I'm going to stop if you continue spiraling downward into this drivel.

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    Replies
    1. So, apparently, if a non-gender-exclusive thing like rape or violence happens to a woman by a man, it's automatically misogyny. Fuck off and go back to Harry Potter.

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  14. Well, in defense of Jason... I was in a hating mode right after the trauma that was Ned's head. I can't quite blame his Sansa hate. Mine cooled down around YOU KNOW WHEN in YOU KNOW WHAT.

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  15. Yes, because Jason really gives a fuck if some people stop reading a blog that he's using more as notes than a traffic site.

    Stop threatening and just leave. It's the internet. No one gives a shit.

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  16. Sansa might well have been sheltered and young and naive and all those excuses but I hate her. I hate her because she betrayed Arya in favour of Joffrey and that's unforgivable. Anyone who has younger siblings knows that you can fight and shout and hate each other but when push comes to shove, family is family. Everyone except Sansa. Bitch.

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  17. tbh i think he hates the characters because of what they did rather than their gender... had Sansa been male i doubt he'd have treated the situation with less harsh words. as for Miri Mraz Duur, i did find it funny that she made a big deal about being raped like a dog instead of a woman, as if it makes it any better

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  18. I think Jason is trying too hard to be funny with plotlines that are becoming increasingly serious, and some of his humor is offending a certain segment of the readers here. It's essentially like trying to make jokes about 9/11 or Katrina. It can come back to bite you in the ass.

    Roland of Gilead

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  19. Why not just make your poster name Roland of Gilead instead of signing it as Roland of Gilead every single time? Dumbass.

    Anonymous

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  20. @ Roland of G. : I cant belive what you a writing there. Making fun of 911 or a deadly Hurricane is like having some jokes about a fiktive Person in a Fantasie Book? I think you lost a sense for reality, didnt you?

    I cant wait to read Jasons comment about the next Dany Chapter....

    Sansa is a victim and became that because Ned and Cat didnt teach her real life. Her dreams about beeing a Princes and how a Prince should be turn into a nightmare. You cant blame her for being like she is. Blame the Parents!

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  21. Yeah. Nobody is responsible for their own actions. It's always somebody else's fault.

    Sheesh!

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  22. @ Anonymous two posts up:

    You can't change someone's personality (most of the time, that is). She grew up feeding on a fantasy because that's what she wanted.

    I can't just someone who's always gonna be an asshole.

    You can't change someone who's gay.

    It's just how the world works. It's her own doing, not her parents'.

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  23. I'm interested in what Jason thinks about the fact that Meryn is alive now, despite facing Syrio in 'battle' when Arya made her escape.

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  24. Speaking of 9/11, I remember that was a particularly sad day for me. My dog died, I was fired from work and my wife left me.

    On a brighter note, there was some good stuff on TV that day.

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  25. The other day I missed my flight. There was a later flight, but I was worried because it had a connection at the Empire State Building.

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  26. MedcapHal, as a New Yorker, I find that comment extremely offensive, and I can't understand why you think it would be funny

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  27. As a New Yorker I find it refreshing that people are willing to do something other than wail and moan about patriotism in regards to 9/11, no matter how not funny the bad joke actually is. I'm also kind of getting sick of New Yorkers pulling the 'I'm a NYer, defer to me on issues of 9/11' card.

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  28. @Anonymous: I really don't appreciate the mocking of me. Of course I don't mean to say that 9/11 and Katrina are of the same magnitude as A Game of Thrones. A Game of Thrones is clearly more important than both of those events combined. You simply don't joke about Eddard's death, or poor Sansa and Arya's plight.

    Has it ever occurred to you that the Starks are a family, much like your own? Or how about the fact that, once, you were 12 years old, too?

    Roland of Gilead

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  29. Yes, because we all know how hard it is to be caught up in the woes of a twelve year old: puberty, fighting, and a change of interests.

    Oh wait, I forgot. You also usually indirectly murder your father, get sexually abused by 14 year olds, and learn how to take over the world from a mastermind.

    Ah, the woes of a twelve year old.

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  30. "Why not just make your poster name Roland of Gilead instead of signing it as Roland of Gilead every single time? Dumbass."

    Easier this way, Anonymous, and what's your excuse for cravenly hiding with the other twenty Anonymi?

    "Roland of G. : I cant belive what you a writing there. Making fun of 911 or a deadly Hurricane is like having some jokes about a fiktive Person in a Fantasie Book? I think you lost a sense for reality, didnt you?"

    I think anyone making fun of rape, fictitious or otherwises, has lost a sense of reality myself.

    And for the record, the latest post prior to this one which was signed by Roland of Gilead was not me.

    Roland of Gilead (I would say I was the REAL one, but Stephen King might frown on that)

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  31. "MadcapHal, as a New Yorker, I find that comment extremely offensive, and I can't understand why you think it would be funny."

    Um, because you find it extremely offensive...

    Seriously though, it's not that I don't appreciate the magnitude and horror of what happened, I joke because I do appreciate it. At the end of the day, flying a plane into a building and killing 5,000 people or whatever is pretty small beer compared with a lot of what's going on in the world. You think New Yorkers have had it tough because a few of them died in a terrorist attack eight years ago? Do you have any idea how many people have been killed by the USA since that date? And how many of those were innocent? And what's been happening in Zimbabwe makes 9/11 look like a practical joke, while Darfur makes it look like a national holiday. There is evil beyond imagination in the world, and the only way even half-intelligent people can begin to think about those things without their brains immediately exploding with the terrible tragedy of it all is to joke about it.
    So wind it in, New Yorkers. Yours was only the worst thing to happen in the world for about five minutes. Until the US government flew the bin Ladens out of America on the only flight that was allowed to take off because they care more about their relationships with rich oil magnates than the justice their own people are supposed to have a right to. Now that's funny...

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  32. Heated discussions about 9/11 and related issues are really beyond the scope of this blog.

    Lets keep it about the books.

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  33. Don't you get it? This is a giant, smelly, gaping vagina popping out trolls by the minute.

    Resistance to flame wars is futile.

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  34. Good gravy, how many Rolands of Gilead are we going to have? Two people impersonated me today alone. Don't you have anything better to do, anonymous?

    Roland of Gilead

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  35. Less 9/11, more Sansa bashing plz. Love the blog, by the way.

    Not Roland of Gilead

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  36. Man, Roland is a wanker.

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  37. You're all right, and I apologise. Back to the book. Like everyone, I hated Sansa the minute she first appeared, playing sewing games with Genepool or whatever her name was.
    -Slight spoiler alert-
    But I've read all four books and I've not changed my opinion of her. Yes, she's been through a lot. Yes, I sympathise. But she's never learned from any of it, and meets everything with the same wide-eyed bewilderment that she started the series with.

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  38. A message to whoever screens the comments to Jason.

    Ask him what he thinks about some of the casting news about Game of Thrones. I'm curious to see how whether the actors/actresses match his vision of the characters.

    Sean Bean as Ned Stark
    Peter Dinklage as Tyrion Lannister
    Jennifer Ehle as Catelyn Stark
    Lena Headey as Cersei Lannister
    Mikolaj Coster-Waldau as Jaime Lannister
    Mark Addy as Robert Baratheon

    Tamzin Merchanty as Daenerys Targaryen
    Harry Lloyd as Viserys Targaryen

    Kit Harrigton as Jon Snow
    Richard Madden as Robb Stark

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  39. Dumb-Ass (aka:HomoMonkey) as Hodor/MoonBoy
    AnonyKim (aka:ThreeTitties) as Cat/MaggytheFrog
    Roland of Gilead (aka:TheGunslinger) as Robb
    StarktheWolf (aka:MansMan) as Dead Ned
    KnightofWinter (aka:LittleDick) as LittleFinger
    Wakiki (aka:Butt-Ugly) as TheHound/Brienne
    The rest to be Announced -

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  40. I'm reliving my pain and joy through you, Jason. Keep up the entertaining work.

    Regarding Anonymous trolls ... I actually find them somewhat fascinating -- an odd character study -- these people who are fans enough of a literary series, television show, etc., taking the time to seek out blogs and fan sites...

    ... and then troll them with spiteful abandon. It doesn't really matter if they are a named poster or anonymous; so long as they remain hidden and safe from the persecution / physical beatings they would be subject to if they spouting off on a city street corner. I find something interesting yet ultimately sad about that sort of person.

    It's a bizarre pathos. A little like the tech whiz who spends his free time making computer viruses, and something I don't quite understand. I'm sure there's a psychology thesis or two out there regarding it.

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  41. 1. People who make viruses ARE tech wizzes. Retard.

    2. Learn what pathos means. The word you're looking for is logos.

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  42. Hmm, the word he's looking for is most certainly not logos. Idiot.

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  43. WUTTABOUT ETHOS, BETCHA THATS WHAT HE MEAN

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  44. AboutYeaHigh (aka:TrollFucker) as Dontos

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  45. I miss "GREGOR SMASH!"

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  46. "It's a bizarre pathos. A little like the tech whiz who spends his free time making computer viruses, and something I don't quite understand."

    So a genius making viruses instead of doing good (as he's implying) for the technical world is a flawed emotion, not a flawed logic?

    Sinic, you are a catamite.

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  47. Thank you for -all- your kind answers. Gentlemen, scholars, connoisseurs of cheap liquor...

    Well, actually, I didn't get the answers I wanted, but they are answers nonetheless! I just find it interesting. And slightly amusing, for lack of anything better to read.

    For the record, "good" (or "evil") is not implied in virus-making; I was thinking more toward the practicality of it. The smarter computer guys (I am not one of those, and this thing I type on is just a glorified keyboard that lets me erase without using white tape) generally have the intellect to make assloads of money if they channel their brains in the right direction. People in business are often accused of a lack of morality for the extents they will go to in order to -get- money. Unless there's a profit angle I'm missing, most virus makers simply do what they do for shits and giggles. I don't imagine many of them are closet millionaires.

    So I would say it's a flawed logic more than an emotional glitch. But I imagine some sort of innate twitch attached.

    Also, "Catamite" is awesome. That's going to be my next screen name. That or "Jonquil."

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  48. Yes, so like I said: logos; pathos wasn't the right word.

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  49. I humbly submit for a formal retraction of pathetic "pathos."

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  50. Can we just keep this asoif related from now? This is just getting pretty fucking boring. I'd rather have some proper discussion about the books

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  51. "Are you not entertained?"

    We're bored too. I'd rather Jason post a new chapter or two.

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  52. So you look to a blog about a book for excitement?

    Mmm.

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  53. bisou (aka:BendmeOverandGangRapeMe) as Lollys

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  54. Coming from the guy posting on a blog at 4 in the morning. Ok.

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  55. Sansa betrayed her family once, just in the case of Arya Vs. Joffrey. The second time, it is explicited that she didn't betray anyone: she just went to Cersei to ask for the Queen's leave to stay at King's Landing with Joffrey. That hardly counts as treason. You criticise an 11 year old girl because her family raised her "like a lady", and she did so well (according to everyone), that she ended up believing it. An eleven year old committing mistakes, out of believing what her parents and teachers told her? The heinous crime!

    I think Sansa is by far, one of Martin's best characters. As a XXth century woman, I always wondered what it would be like to be born as a woman in ancient times. Raised to sing, sew, embroider, dance and please. Raised to dream only with marriage. What if I had been a girl at that time and had believed all that stuff? What with the girls who believed the fairytale stuff and then clashed with reality? I found a great example in Sansa. I abhor the hatred that is displayed towards her, because what the fuck? She's an ELEVEN year old girl. Everyone who surrounds her has always been saying she's doing the right thing: both her parents and the Septa agree that Arya's doing things wrong, Sansa right. Is it so unbelievable that Sansa actually believes them. At age 11 your parents are more responsible for your acts than you are. Yes, I know Arya is different. But let's remember that Arya rebelled against her place in the world because she was painfully aware that she didn't fit in it. Sansa didn't rebel because she didn't need to, and because everyone told her she was doing the right thing to do. Yes, it's her parents fault. You shouldn't lie to your kids.

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  56. One of the things I very much dislike about the Sansa haters is how they don't give Eddard (for telling Cersei he knew everything) half the crap poor Sansa gets (for telling Cersei she wants to stay at King's Landing with her then-dear-Joff, which is a pretty innocent thing for a child to ask). Eddard gets away with his (conscious) mistake, and Sansa, who is a child with her head full of crap (one wonders who put it there) gets called "traitor" for her very unconscious mistake. Sansa didn't want to betray her family, she wanted to stay at court. Someone instilled it into her that she should want to marry Joff. One remembers Catelyn's words about "Robert wants to make your daughter a Queen", and guesses who instilled that stuff into her.
    Another point is, Sansa is absolutely clueless as to how the real world works, but is supposed to be wise in what she's taught. She knows her heraldry and tales and music and songs, because that's what she was taught. She didn't rebel like Arya, because unlike Arya, she was good at it. The system seemed to work for her, so she didn't challenge it. Then again, being 11, you don't challenge the system much until you're Arya.

    Don't get me wrong, I think Arya is really awesome. It's just that I also think Sansa is an awesome character too. They are both girls in a very misogynistic world, and they both are raised to fit into a mold. Sansa fits perfectly, and believes things are right until everything goes wrong. Unlucklily, by that time she's totally defenseless and all her abilities are basically useless. Arya doesn't fit in her place, so she rebels, becoming stronger. Both are great female characters. And I wish Sansa didn't get that much crap. I see her as the equivalent of a nowadays nerd, like the typical kid who studies a lot, very hard, because her mom and dad insist that he needs to get all A's in all subjects, and then finds out that in the real world, other qualities, like charisma or people's skills, are more needed that yet another point in his Math exams. I think that's what happened to Sansa: she was trained to be what she is. Heck, when she lied about Arya and Joff, who did Ned scold afterwards? Arya. Because everyone admits Sansa is doing the right thing. After all Joff is supposed to be her husband and future lord, so Ned doesn't go to Sansa to tell her "hey, Joff's an ass, don't obey him or protect him blindly". Why not? Hell, because even he gave straight orders to cat, as husband and Lord, and Ned knows if Joff orders, Sansa shall obey. So when Sansa lies, Ned scolds Arya for being unladylike.

    Really, I don't see why people hate the girl that much, the poor little thing has been raised to do exactly what she did. Her family constantly reinforced her belief that she was doing the right thing (such as Daddy ordering Mommy not to ask about the family bastards, and everyone shuts up because he's the lord). The poor little thing was fed up the fact that she was going to be sold to a husband who would own her, and was sold the pill with the sugar of romance tales and songs. And still, people hate her. Not Ned, who could have told her she was doing things wrong, and not Arya. Not Cat, who sent her to court to be queen. It's all her fault because 11th year old girls who've been told lies all their lives should be the pinnacle of wisdom. Some people have problems getting into other people's shoes.

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  57. That's right.... let it all out.... let it all out... Just breathe...

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  58. lawl at isa and her rage


    laaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaawwwwlllllllllllllllll

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  59. Have to agree with Isa. Sansa gets an unfair shake. I feel a little badly for Sophie Turner, the young, inexperienced actress that will be playing her; if she does a fair job of it, she should get a lot of hate mail.

    Rage on, Isa!

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  60. ITT: Nerd rage

    rofl

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  61. To the guy saying I was posting at 4 in the morning, I happen to live in another country. IDIOT. You obviously dont know what a Time Zone is.

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  62. hahaha, Its a shame our resident anonymous turned out to be a bit of a dunce ey.

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  63. I absolutely agree that Ned is largely to blame for Sansa's error. Or at least, if he had bothered to say "and don't tell anyone we're leaving" we'd have a clearer view of whether Sansa is just normal 11 year old stupid, or exceptionally stupid. It doesn't change the fact that, in my opinion, she's an annoying character who has not at this point in the book shown much in the way of redeeming characteristics.

    We can spend all sorts of time arguing over whose fault it is that Sansa sucks - she still sucks. That being said, a major reason I can't stand Cat is because of her role in making Sansa such a pain in the ass.

    But if we want to be fair, we have 3 young girls here, all of similar ages, all taken out of their elements and put into situations they were not prepared for. All of her other traits aside, Sansa is proving to be pretty freaking dense. She isn't learning from her errors nearly as quickly as Arya, or even Dany. Every time she gets a chance to learn what the real world is like and then doesn't, she slips a notch on the 'how likeable can she be' ladder.

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  64. To the Sansa lover:
    Eddard I believe made very clear to both the girls the danger they were in staying at Kings Landing, hell he got jumped and had his leg BROKE by the queens brother and he is the HAND. So sorry your Sansa rant doesn't hold up, the little traitor bitch did everything else her parents told her to do because she is so (perfect). The truth is she decided to have a tantrum and it helped result in the death of her father and caused her and her sister to be in the position that they are in.

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  65. First of all, don't call me Sansa lover just because you happen to hate her, I love most of Martin's characters, and I particularly doat on Arya and Dany. I just think Sansa gets a lot of hatred which she doesn't deserve, and that the character is extremely original. Plus, she is not "my" Sansa, though she's probably your hated Sansa. You are the one who seems enraged about anyone saying something reasonable about the girl (I didn't call anyone "bitch", which you did, and that shows shows who has strong emotions at stake here, so be more honest with the use of words next time, I'm no Sansa lover, you are a Sansa hater).

    Eddard raised Sansa to be what she is, period. In all that we've read so far, both girls are told to stay with the Septa to embroider, sing and dance, and it is made clear that Sansa is doing things right, and Arya is the "bad" one. Arya rebels (logically) because she doesn't fit in, and Sansa doesn't because she thinks it's going to be allright and her parents aren't smart enough to challenge those notions. What happens if you tell your kids lies, is that they may eventually believe them, specially if they are being constantly told how well they're going.

    About Sansa being dense... I'd like to see other people's reactions when they were eleven, in a totally hostile environment, with the sole abilities to sing, dance and play harp. Still, she has her few moments (can't mention them because they'd be spoilers, and this comment is spoiler-free). However, she gets triple the hatred people bestow on Gregor, Cersei o Jaime. What bothers me the most is that people choose not to read what's actually written in the book when it comes to bashing Sansa. Sansa gets called a traitor, when she didn't betray anyone. She didn't have the intention of betraying her family, she just asked to stay at King's Landing, and Cersei got the rest of her. Ned didn't say "oh, and my life will be threatened if you dare move". Plus, let's all not forget that he had warned Cersei previously. To put it short, traitor applies to Cersei as adulteress or to Littlefinger, who knew what was going on and spilled. Sansa didn't know what was going on, and though she spilled important info, she did so unwillingly. Maybe, just maybe, if she had been told something half reasonable at a certain point in her life, she would have done something reasonable when the time came.

    Stupid? Yeah, but, who put those ideas in her head in the first place? Who was so proud that she was ladylike? Now the girl is a hostage with no useful ability whatsoever, and frankly, her parents brought it on her more than she did. One thing is to find the character not interesting, (something I understand), and a different one is to call her traitor (she isn't) or "bitch" (and some dare say I was the one ranting, talk about not knowing yourself here). In short, she gets far more hatred than she deserves, which is what bothers me. In the wide scale of blacks and greys of the ethics of this series, there are lots of characters who have done far more and far worse than Sansa, and they don't get half the crap. I wish I knew why. It seems it's OK to kill and throw children off the tops of towers, but children committing mistakes because their parents were stupid enough not to tell them about real life deserve abuse and being stoned to death. Eddard doesn't get half the criticism Sansa does, despite he knew the possible consequences of telling Cersei. He ignored Renly's advice of taking Joff hostage, too. Jaime goes on killing rampages without second thoughts and has to get exiled from the city. But it's Sansa who get the hatred for being, apparently, the worst person on the full cast, in a cast so full of near-war criminals to collapse bureaucracy at The Hague. Interesting vision of human standards of ethics. Intriguing, at least. Wonder what is says of human nature.

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  66. AnonyKim wrote:

    "But if we want to be fair, we have 3 young girls here, all of similar ages, all taken out of their elements and put into situations they were not prepared for."

    Two of the girls were at least partially prepared for what came to them, and aided along the way by wiser people. Arya has had martial training: Sansa has none. Dany knows the world is a dangerous place: she's been hiding and escaping since she was little. Arya had people who helped her develop her useful abilities: Jon gave her a sword, Ned a fencing master, and Syrio valuable lessons. Dany was taken under Drogo's wing, and Drogo, unlike Joff, wanted his wife to be courageous and strong like him (says little of Joff he has to scare a girl to feel strong, Drogo wanted his woman to be strong). Dany and Arya have had good role models and have been taught useful stuff. Sansa hasn't had one single role model or master or teacher worth his salt. So you can't compare the three girls, because their circumstances aren't the same. Sansa gets her head patted for recognizing Renly Baratheon at first sight with her Heraldry knowledge only. Is that useful? No. Is she good at it? Yes. The girl doesn't lack brains, it's just her brains have been put to no use. And of course, she's a coward, educated to be docile and meek. But then again, that's how she's been raised.

    About Yeah: yes, Sophie Turner will get very much bashed whether she does a good or a bad job.

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  67. Isa:

    It sounds like you're saying that Sansa was raised to be a great courtier, and is now floundering because she's in a world where those skills are not useful. Except if that were true, she wouldn't be in her current position. Of all the things she learned, weren't the mottos of her two families, and the importance of adhering to them, taught? She has failed as a Tully - FAMILY, Duty, Honor, and she's failed as a Stark - WINTER IS COMING (translated, be afraid, be very afraid). She's a spoiled brat who is reaping what she's sowed. You could say that it is the fault of her parents, but how far does that excuse go? At what point does she have to start being responsible for herself? At what point can we expect her to start to learn from her mistakes? I think it should have been a while ago.

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  68. Well, Sansa at this point probably just wants to survive. As a little girl surrounded by watchful enemies (they DID kill all the other Stark people, right?), full of fear and told to play her part prettily or feel a world of pain, I don't blame her for her lack of active defiance. She tries her best to work within the confines that she's given, and I guess that might frustrate some people, who just want her to Arya-ize and leave everything she's known to turn into a badass.

    That would be admittedly cool and more in sync with what people expect from protagonists/heroes, but yes I agree with an above poster who said that Sansa's character is unique in that respect. Both of their stories are incredibly sad though.

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  69. Didn't she proclaimed to the whole court that the Stark gene is tainted and that she is more of the 'loyal' Tully side to save herself?

    In Ned's defense, he was trying not to hurt Sansa feeling by not explaining the whole situation.

    'Your own lies/silence killed Lady.'
    'Joff is at best a royal jerk, you are a moron for not seeing it.'

    Yes, the Lannister would have won anyway, but the hatred toward her is less about her betrayal itself than her reasons for it. ie. so she could marry that Joff!?

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  70. AnonyKim:

    Sansa wasn't raised to be a great courtier, but a beautiful, shallow courtier. A great courtier knows the difference between songs and reality, and doesn't expect undying love from an arranged marriage, or to live up the fantasies she's read. This girl was raised to expect and want the impossible. You also call her a spoiled brat. Well, at age eleven, if a brat is spoiled, it is generally concluded that it's her parents' who did the spoiling.

    You say Sansa failed as a Tully because of "Family, Duty, Honor". For a long time, her family was going to be whatever family she was sold to in exchange of an alliance. Joff was going to be his family, just as the Starks became Cat's family, and Ned her husband and Lord. Yes, she made a big mistake by going to Cersei to ask leave to stay in King's Landing, because she had been fed the story of the great love during her childhood. That's an unconscious mistake, sprung from her ridiculous education.

    You ask, about her education being the fault of her parents, "how far does that excuse go?" At age eleven and with no prior knowledge of the world other than that provided by her Mom and septa, I'd say the excuse goes pretty, pretty far. At least, as long as she commited mistakes unconsciously. The excuse goes as far as for me to say that if you tell your enemies you are going to chase them, refuse to take the crown prince as hostage, trust a man whom you don't really know, and get betrayed, the fact that your kid threw a tantrum in the worst moment is not what made the difference between life and death. Was Sansa wrong at throwing the tantrum and asking Cersei to stay at King's Landing? Yes, of course, but still, her crime is "eleven year old girl throws a tantrum because she was promised heaven and earth for eleven years and was told in the last two minutes that, no, really, the adults weren't serious about it and none of it was true after all". Yes, it was wrong. But what it is not is treason, and does not make her a bitch or a hateable character. Sansa's responsibility in her father's death is that of a child going for a whim with no idea of the possible consequences it might have. Problem is, when you put your life at stake, hanging on the thread of the behaviour of your very miseducated, misguided and street-unwise eleven year old girl, what happens next is your fault. Again, don't lie to your kids, they may believe you and act accordingly.

    And about what she says later when she's terrified and surrounded of enemies... Yes, the girl proclaimed at court that she was "good" and not traitorous as the rest of her family. And anyone who has seen a child being intimidated by an adult, can see that Cersei was doing that: intimidate her. Sansa is a full-fledged coward. You can instill fear into people, and it's very easy to do so with children who are alone and who have been educated to be docile and meek. Everyone may think she's uncool, and sure everyone thinks they would behave oh so differently in her place. Whatever. What I still don't understand is why she gets more hatred than the child murderers or mass rapists in the books. Or why people called her a traitor when there was no betrayal in the first place. Again, it intrigues me. I believe in free will and responsibility, but I also believe in brainwashing, and a child brainwashed from the cradle sees her ability to choose greatly reduced. If people said "Oh, Sansa wss so docile and she had to have her childish moment of defiance at the worst moment possible" that'd be OK. But, "Sansa betrayed her family" is just not what's written in the books, period. You have to be conscious to betray anyone, and she wasn't. To say the girl deserved what she got from Joff would be akin to saying Ned deserved what happened to him. Yet Ned never gets half as bashed. Or Jaime. Again, it's the double-triple-quadruple standard that intrigues me.

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  71. Isa, I could be like you and waste my time typing up a retaliatory response (and I know I could verbally rape you)... or I could just watch your Crusader-like antics and laugh.

    I think I'll do the latter.

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  72. @Isa, you've made some excellent points. Sansa was always rewarded for behaving a certain way, is it any surprise that she would *gasp* keep behaving that way till she learns how poorly it serves her? Or that that she would have difficulties adjusting?

    I hated Sansa the first time I read the series, but after re-reading it a couple of times, I found her far more pitiable, then intriguing. She goes through a lot of changes, things get worse and worse for her--even after the constant terrorizing she gets during Ned's imprisonment and after his death.

    Don't forget also that she was betrothed to Joff, and therefore expected to transfer her allegiance to the Baratheon/Lannister dynasty. Just as Caitlyn was expected to put the Starks before the Tullys, or any other woman in a dynastic alliance, for that matter. And that's something Sansa also would have been taught.

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  73. To the Sansa LOVER:
    I read your responses and half to laugh. For a person who claims not to have "strong emotions" about the little traitor you sure like to write a million words defending her? hmmmmm.... sounds like your really emotional about Sansa and probably see yourself as her in the story? Poor poor little Sansa all she was taught was to play harp(which btw is never mentioned) and embroider, and have TANTRUMS when she doesn't get her way. I hate to break it to you but Sansa is a liar and a Traitor. And for all the brains you claim she has she acts pretty stupid. The girl flat out lied about what happen when Arya kicked Joffs ass, and look what happen after that, she got her own Wolf killed, a little kitchen boy cut in half, and alot of other things. You would think she would have learned a lesson about what type of people she was dealing with right there? Hell she dreams of "Good Knights" what type of knight tries to kick your younger sister ass with a sword, and you not see what kind of person they are?? You keep trying to bring dead Ned into it but the truth remains that if Sansa would not have pulled another TANTRUM and ran blabbing to HER wolf killing queen, then the two girls would have been on a boat going back North when the shit hit the fan. Cersie only made her move first because she knew what Ned was planning because of SANSA if not for her then things might have went a little diff? I bash on Sansa because she truly is a IDIOT that never learns anything. I mean how many times do you walk into a tree before you learn to go around it? Most high-born girls was taught everything Sansa was so quit trying to blame her parents, do you really think Ned or even Cat for that matter knew what was really going down in Kings landing before they left? Sansa is just a little soft in the head apparently, even so she has caused alot of bad things to happen.

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  74. To the Anonymous:
    Again, betrayal, by definition, requires you to know what you're doing. So Cersei and Littlefinger quite qualify as traitors, and the eleven year old girl doesn't. If you don't understand that, you should check up your dictionary before trying to prove a point.

    Good attempt at trying to avoid reason by saying that "I see myself in the story at Sansa" but erred. First, that's a fallacy that doesn't contradict my arguments: Ned and Cat raised Sansa to be what she is. Ned and Cat raised Sansa to be obedient, believe in romance stories, and to be part of a family to which she was going to be sold. Ned saw Sansa lie, and instead of telling her she was wrong (something very needed, because Sansa is eleven and needs guidance) Ned told Arya she was the one wrong, thus reinforcing every wrong notion Sansa had. And Ned did such a thing, because he knew that Joff was a spoilt kid, but he was going to sell his daughter to him anyway. So he didn't tell the truth to his daughter "you are for sale in the marriage market, darling", and let her believe stuff that was ultimately dangerous for her. Her parents' fault.

    Sansa threw a tantrum? Yes, so does Arya during the books. They are children of nine and eleven, children are known for not being reasonable all the time, that's why parents educate them to be so. Again, children throw tantrums, and if you put yourself in a situation in which your little girl throwing a tantrum may cost you your life, you did LOTS of things wrong from the very beginning.

    About your fallacy (and not an argument, as I see), I'll answer you that I felt very identified with both Dany and Arya. Stunning looks apart, Dany's early life resembles a lot my own. I was basically raised by my older brother (and he was very much like Viserys, with some blows included), and was freed from his bullying by my husband. And I feel identified with Arya's rebellious and inquisitive ways much more than with Sansa's quietness. To be honest, I very much disliked Sansa in the first book: she's posh, cheesy and superficial. Her lack of initiative is exasperating, and she's a coward (it's called learned helplessness, but whatever). That's what makes her a great character: she's normal. If she's taught stupid things, she believes them. She knows nothing until she's taught it (by violence or teachers). The thing is, while everyone seems to think "the girl is an evil traitor", I was thinking "the parents are stupid, this girl is going to cause trouble". I could see what Sansa was going to do a few chapters in advance, as many readers. My favourite female characters are, by far, Arya, Dany and the Kraken. What I wonder is why Sansa gets more bashing than, say, Gregor Clegane, who burnt the face of his brother to the bone.

    You say "Cersei only made her move first because she knew what Ned was planning because of SANSA". Have you read the book? The part where Ned Stark tells Cersei she has to flee with all the Lannisters because as soon as Robert comes from his hunting, he's telling him about the adultery? See? You simply refuse to even consider what's actually written in the books. Ned commits a lot of mistakes, and you willfully choose to forget about them. Sansa commits a mistake and she pays for it, for sure (so does Arya, unluckily). And the only thing you have to say is a fallacy as "you see yourself in Sansa". No, I was lucky, unlike Sansa, I was taught to see reality as it is. My grandmother, however, could have been Sansa. Geez, nowadays we have child soldiers and child suicide bombers, and I rarely see the blame bestowed on the children.

    Yes, I wrote a lot, I type fast. And I like practicing my English, I'm not a native speaker, at least we have that in common.

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  75. To the Sansa Lover "Once Again": First off you said
    "Again, betrayal, by definition, requires you to know what you're doing. So Cersei and Littlefinger quite qualify as traitors, and the eleven year old girl doesn't. If you don't understand that, you should check up your dictionary before trying to prove a point."

    Ok I hate to tell you this but SANSA did know what she was doing. She knew exactly what she was doing when she went to Cersie and told her everything. It doesn't matter why she did it (out of puppy love, angry at her dad, only 11)it only matters that she did do it and knew what she was doing. Cersie and Littlefinger have nothing to do with Sansa and her betrayal
    the fact is SHE still did it and KNEW what she was doing. I don't need a dictionary to prove that point.


    Then you spit out this mouth-full:
    "Good attempt at trying to avoid reason by saying that "I see myself in the story at Sansa" but erred. First, that's a fallacy that doesn't contradict my arguments: Ned and Cat raised Sansa to be what she is. Ned and Cat raised Sansa to be obedient, believe in romance stories, and to be part of a family to which she was going to be sold. Ned saw Sansa lie, and instead of telling her she was wrong (something very needed, because Sansa is eleven and needs guidance) Ned told Arya she was the one wrong, thus reinforcing every wrong notion Sansa had. And Ned did such a thing, because he knew that Joff was a spoilt kid, but he was going to sell his daughter to him anyway. So he didn't tell the truth to his daughter "you are for sale in the marriage market, darling", and let her believe stuff that was ultimately dangerous for her. Her parents' fault."

    I said you see yourself as Sansa in the story because you so obviously try and blame every one else for SANSA actions and mistakes but SANSA, and just by reading your long winded comments thats the take I get about YOU. Ned and Cat raised Sansa just like EVERY OTHER high-born girl is raised in the book. So all your comments about the way she was raised is for nothing and just a personal matter that you need to get over. "Ned saw Sansa LIE" please
    feel free in proving that because I don't recall reading that and it sounds like something your making up in your mind to justify Sansa actions once again? Ned might have known Joff was "spoilt" but so what? He didn't know what was really going own in the South. How in the hell would Ned have known Joff was the way he was? And when he found out other things look what he did, he tryed to get his girls out of there and was going to find somebody else for Sansa. And you keep saying things like "sell his daughter" and stupid shit like that. Ned didn't sell anything let alone his own daughter. See again this is just another one of YOUR OWN personal problems and beliefs that has nothing to do with the book or Sansa being stupid for that matter.

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  76. Then you go on and talk about your life and how you relate to Dany,Arya,Asha basically EVERY-OTHER female but Sansa. Thats funny as hell to me LMAO. But hey whatever, that's has nothing to do with SANSA being stupid once again and it's just more of your personal BS. I think you are like Sansa and you wish you really were like the other girls but hey like I said WHATEVER.

    And you bring us to this:
    "You say "Cersei only made her move first because she knew what Ned was planning because of SANSA". Have you read the book? The part where Ned Stark tells Cersei she has to flee with all the Lannisters because as soon as Robert comes from his hunting, he's telling him about the adultery? See? You simply refuse to even consider what's actually written in the books. Ned commits a lot of mistakes, and you willfully choose to forget about them. Sansa commits a mistake and she pays for it, for sure (so does Arya, unluckily). And the only thing you have to say is a fallacy as "you see yourself in Sansa". No, I was lucky, unlike Sansa, I was taught to see reality as it is. My grandmother, however, could have been Sansa. Geez, nowadays we have child soldiers and child suicide bombers, and I rarely see the blame bestowed on the children."

    Once again you prove yourself a true SANSA LOVER LOL. Cersie had no IDEA that Ned was planning on getting his children out of there UNTILL Sansa went to her and "poured out her heart" then Cersie had Sansa put in a room with guards posted. So yeah thank-you I read the books. I never said that Ned never made mistakes but then again we are TALKING about SANSA and her MISTAKES. Ones that you so willfully choose to forget or to blame on other people. There is a big big diff between child soldiers and SANSA in a book series. For you to even compare the two OR use it to defend Sansa speaks alot about your state of mind and once again your personal beliefs. But I gussed you missed the point of it after all it's only a fantasy book.

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  77. I really wonder if people have read this book. Ned told Cersei that he was going to tell Robert, he said nothing about his plans for his children, or his letters to Winterfell. If Sansa hadn't spoke, Arya would've gone home and not gone through her crap, Sansa would be in Winterfell and not being abused by a thirteen year old golden haired pussy, and therefore other plot points would not have happened also. Sansa didn't exactly cause Ned's death, but she did cause a whole shitload of other problems.

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